tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post4667083696000157786..comments2023-05-08T10:46:34.371+01:00Comments on Y Cneifiwr: Ukip - a lesson from historyUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-45217889345146319292014-06-02T20:37:34.596+01:002014-06-02T20:37:34.596+01:00For goodness sake cneifiwr let's be realistic;...For goodness sake cneifiwr let's be realistic; of course Plaid politicians can't appear to be xenophobic and, indeed, I'd be surprised if they were in fact. They are trying hard to appear inclusive and not too Welsh speaking but their supporters are a different thing. For your average Plaid punter hatred of all things English is meat and drink...just wait until the World cup and see all the foreign flags and shirts that Welsh nationalists come up with...anyone but England. Childish, pathetic and racist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-53360570123335422832014-06-01T16:29:25.569+01:002014-06-01T16:29:25.569+01:00Mogs - If you have any evidence of Plaid Cymru xen...Mogs - If you have any evidence of Plaid Cymru xenophobia, please get in touch.<br /><br />Several of Plaid's candidates for Westminster and Welsh Assembly seats are English incomers - selected by party members (in Plaid every member gets to vote in a secret ballot on who is to stand in elections). That doesn't sound very xenophobic to me.<br /><br />Leanne Wood was also elected by ordinary party members, and the fact that she is not from a Welsh speaking background did not count against her.<br /><br />Her Welsh has come on leaps and bounds in the last couple of years, and I hope yours does too. <br /><br />Dyfal donc a dyr y garreg.<br /><br />I'm sure that if you wanted to go along to a Plaid meeting, you would be made very welcome, no matter what your accent.Cneifiwrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08767078276794410524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-8164064653036769222014-06-01T12:04:41.142+01:002014-06-01T12:04:41.142+01:00Royston Jones said...
"A number of the anti-...Royston Jones said... <br />"A number of the anti-Plaid / anti-Welsh comments here - which could of course all come from one busy individual - argue a) that discussing immigration is legitimate . . . but the English moving into Wales is entirely different; b) that the 'Welsh' voted Ukip; c) argue that Plaid Cymru is a "deeply xenophobic party". "<br /><br />Having a Welsh Father and an English Mother, I lived in Wales until I wasd 18 months old. I have now returned to Wales after an absence of more than 40 years and have an English accent. I speak limited Welsh and would like to improve quicker than I am.<br /><br />I am Welsh, I am deeply patriotic and get offended when people tell me I am English. <br /><br />I am sorry to say that many - though not all - from Plaid Cymru, are xenophobic. That said Leanne Wood is hardly a very Welsh name and of course, she too speaks limited Welsh.<br />Mogsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-18877734558421570652014-05-30T20:35:51.738+01:002014-05-30T20:35:51.738+01:00Sorry; the above should read
"Oddly enough t...Sorry; the above should read<br /><br />"Oddly enough the LA with the highest percentage of support for UKIP was the county with the lowest percentage of people "Born in ENGLAND"; Merthyr.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-1733341168886887362014-05-30T13:47:05.117+01:002014-05-30T13:47:05.117+01:00Prof Roger Scully has posted an interesting piece ...Prof Roger Scully has posted an interesting piece on the election; he reproduces figures from Ian Clarke:-<br /><br />"Ian has also run a couple of correlations for UKIP vote share by LA. One is with the percentage of the population of each LA born in England. Interestingly, the correlation here is fairly weak but also negative: on average UKIP scored a lower vote share where the English-born population was higher."<br /><br />Oddly enough the LA with the highest percentage of support for UKIP was the county with the lowest percentage of people "Born in Wales"; Merthyr.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-37429310435603937992014-05-30T06:36:59.365+01:002014-05-30T06:36:59.365+01:00To the person who left a highly inflammatory post ...To the person who left a highly inflammatory post attacking Cymdeithas yr Iaith and others, why not get your own blog? You may want to call it Gogwatch Revived.Cneifiwrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08767078276794410524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-51265415355953948402014-05-29T16:09:57.010+01:002014-05-29T16:09:57.010+01:00"So, it's all right to rant and rave abou..."So, it's all right to rant and rave about immigrants from over the Channel but not against those from over Offa's Dyke."<br /><br />You may not have noticed that Offa's dyke is within the UK and therefore English people or Scots people are not "Immigrants" when they come to Wales any more than Welsh people are immigrants to England.<br /><br />Ranting and Raving is not OK but people in Wales voted in large numbers for UKIP and small numbers for Plaid. Since it is Plaid that is concerned about English people coming here and UKIP that is concerned about other nationalities coming here I think we can see who most closely reflects the feelings of Welsh people.<br /><br />If voting UKIP is Un-Welsh as Leanne claims then there are an awful lot of Un-Welsh people living in the South Wales Valleys...the very place with the highest Welsh National Identity.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-36520701649861976252014-05-29T13:05:22.041+01:002014-05-29T13:05:22.041+01:00Cneifiwr- a frightening prospect and if you had wr...Cneifiwr- a frightening prospect and if you had written that in 1933, people in Germany would have said "its never going to happen , we are a civilised country the home of culture " We however know what happened next <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-28160657481964791272014-05-29T12:31:04.817+01:002014-05-29T12:31:04.817+01:00A number of the anti-Plaid / anti-Welsh comments h...A number of the anti-Plaid / anti-Welsh comments here - which could of course all come from one busy individual - argue a) that discussing immigration is legitimate . . . but the English moving into Wales is entirely different; b) that the 'Welsh' voted Ukip; c) argue that Plaid Cymru is a "deeply xenophobic party". <br /><br />Discussing immigration is fine, and it should be done in the open; but what's happening in Wales is not immigration, it's colonisation,<br /><br />In rural areas - Powys comes to mind - the greater part of the Ukip vote will have come from white flighters who could no longer live among 'darkies', and bring their intolerant anglosupremacist attitudes to Wales. <br /><br />Anyone who knows Plaid Cymru will know that it is the least xenophobic party. It's weakness on the colonisation issue is the reason that many people - myself included - no longer vote for Plaid.<br /><br />Finally, the Welsh are not more racist than the English, or the Scots. Many of the Welsh who responded to that survey, especially when answering the question on identity loss, were thinking of English colonisation in Wales, not Romanians or any other bogeymen promoted by Ukip.<br /><br />Which would make them not racist but objectors to colonialism and colonisation, which has righly been lauded and applauded in recent decades . . . except of course by colonialists and colonists. Which probably explain the comments I've referred to.Royston Jonesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-80436594001309772172014-05-29T11:15:15.351+01:002014-05-29T11:15:15.351+01:00A nice piece of escapism to avoid thinking about t...A nice piece of escapism to avoid thinking about the probability that Plaid will be stuffed at the next general election.shambonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-88650088252710192862014-05-29T10:43:54.714+01:002014-05-29T10:43:54.714+01:00If we factor in peak fossil energy and climate cha...If we factor in peak fossil energy and climate change, we can expect a great many states to embark on wars of acquisition (Iraq on an even bigger scale) and to apply martial law to try and control the discontented masses (us). Except for the free-moving global 'elite', immigration is a symptom of worsening conditions elsewhere, people attracted by our tradition of providing welfare payments. I think we have to live differently, with much lower levels of consumption and with economies that are primarily local, so money recirculates within the community. Selling the idea of 'less' is hard because most of us like promises of jam. Ecological economics could help us develop a new type of economy, and students are beginning to demand that ecological economics is put on the curriculum. As yet the academic top brass are not listening.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-86739962162330658612014-05-29T10:42:24.404+01:002014-05-29T10:42:24.404+01:00So, it's all right to rant and rave about immi...So, it's all right to rant and rave about immigrants from over the Channel but not against those from over Offa's Dyke.<br /><br />WhyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-56665455460285591622014-05-29T08:54:44.418+01:002014-05-29T08:54:44.418+01:00Anon 06.21 says it all really; look at the conscio...Anon 06.21 says it all really; look at the conscious imagery deploid repeatedly by Plaid supporters "Crawling with immigrants, from ENGLAND, mostly".<br /><br />But Nationalists cannot hide behind the fig leaf of "we don't hate all immigrants only those crawling English". It defies logic. Plaid is a desperately xenophobic party...desperate to prevent its heartlands changing from mostly Welsh speaking Plaid voters to non-Welsh speaking non Plaid voters. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-18718989181966997062014-05-29T06:21:24.853+01:002014-05-29T06:21:24.853+01:00Where I live is crawling with immigrants, from Eng...Where I live is crawling with immigrants, from England, mostly<br /><br />Or doesn't that count?<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-62323780066981167992014-05-28T23:07:35.751+01:002014-05-28T23:07:35.751+01:00Anon@19.56 One of the areas where Ukip topped the ...Anon@19.56 One of the areas where Ukip topped the polls was Powys - very low levels of immigration and Plaid with only a minor presence.<br /><br />The EU is not perfect - nobody says it is - but it is a million miles from what Murdoch and the Daily Mail have been feeding their readers for decades.<br /><br />100 years on from WW1 Europe is a much better place thanks to the EU.Cneifiwrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08767078276794410524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-75334096014048691312014-05-28T21:49:39.498+01:002014-05-28T21:49:39.498+01:00As you say Cneifiwr "We elect politicians to ...As you say Cneifiwr "We elect politicians to take decisions for us, and if we don't like their decisions, we vote for someone else."<br />And that is why UKIP were so successful.<br />I also feel that the European Parliament are slowly but surely trying to recreate a new USSR.Wavellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-12470004401208961522014-05-28T20:18:11.263+01:002014-05-28T20:18:11.263+01:00This probably explains a lot:-
http://www.bbc.co....This probably explains a lot:-<br /><br />http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-27609767Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-26081743404261288462014-05-28T19:56:45.491+01:002014-05-28T19:56:45.491+01:00Amazing. It seems that Cneifiwr is burying his hea...Amazing. It seems that Cneifiwr is burying his head in the sand; Wales voted for UKIP in very large numbers because what UKIP was saying was attractive to many people. You only have to look athe the British Social attitudes survey to see why Wales was such fertile territory for UKIP....Attitudes to Immigration:-<br /><br />Percentage saying Immigration should be reduced:<br /> Scotland 69%, England 78%, Wales 86%.<br /> Percentage saying Immigration is bad for the economy:<br /> Scotland 44%, England 46%, Wales 65%.<br /> Percentage that saw immigration as undermining indigenous culture:<br /> Scotland 40%, England 44% Wales 68%<br /><br />Wales doesn't like people coming to live here, even though we have very low levels of immigration...and no one panders to anti-immigrant feeling more than Plaid so let's cut the Hypocrisy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-24094268536561780612014-05-28T19:40:57.211+01:002014-05-28T19:40:57.211+01:00The trouble with that argument is that the organis...The trouble with that argument is that the organisations that you mention do not touch peoples everyday lives as does the EU. <br /><br />The Labour Party were offering to do away with nuclear arms a few years ago by Mr Foot and could have been voted into government but they weren't. WE did have a choice though.<br /><br />The transformation of a trading block into a political union is fundamental to my life and I should have given my consent to it.<br /><br />I wouldn't agree either with the Swiss model however I see nothing wrong with every generation or so, a fresh mandate being obtained on such a fundamental change to our democracy.<br /><br />I repeat that not everybody who wants to control immigration is a racist and I think a very large proportion of patriotic welsh people will have voted UKIP for the reasons outlined.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-89682704014285572812014-05-28T19:21:17.621+01:002014-05-28T19:21:17.621+01:00Anon@17.23 - I am sure you are not a racist, and I...Anon@17.23 - I am sure you are not a racist, and I'm sure many of the people who voted for Ukip aren't, just as very many Germans who gave their support to Hitler weren't.<br /><br />Like you I was too young to vote in the 1975 referendum, but I have a problem with calls for another referendum.<br /><br />If, as is quite possible, a majority vote again to stay in, there will no doubt be calls for another referendum after that to give the next generation a chance to have their say. Where does it stop?<br /><br />Have we had referenda on UK membership of Nato, on the UK nuclear "deterrent", on the Commonwealth, the monarchy, the House of Lords, etc., etc?<br /><br />I saw Swiss democracy at close quarters, and it was deeply disappointing. Turnouts were always low and people were often asked to vote on things they could not possibly have read or understood - such as complex tax treaties.<br /><br />In some parts of Switzerland there were local referenda to approve applications for Swiss citizenship. Applicants with Turkish and other foreign sounding names were habitually rejected by voters until the shameful process was stopped.<br /><br />We elect politicians to take decisions for us, and if we don't like their decisions, we vote for someone else.Cneifiwrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08767078276794410524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-29278188238478458342014-05-28T18:42:47.188+01:002014-05-28T18:42:47.188+01:00Maybe some contributors should read reports that g...Maybe some contributors should read reports that give an alternative view : -<br /><br />http://www.dcbmep.org/images/The_Ultimate_Plan_B.pdf<br /><br />http://www.brugesgroup.com/eu/the-benefits-of-eu-membership-are-self-evident-aren-they.htm?xp=comment<br /><br />People need to look at all sides of the argument. I'll leave it to others to bring to the table.<br /><br />Doubtless there will be reports that give a contrary narrative.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-91391740497176914742014-05-28T17:23:09.556+01:002014-05-28T17:23:09.556+01:00An entertaining piece but the doomsday scenario ju...An entertaining piece but the doomsday scenario just doesn't seem plausible.<br /><br />You are assuming that the millions of people who quite legitimately voted for UKIp are racist when this is probably a long way from the truth.<br /><br />I am certainly not a racist but I did vote UKIP. Admittedly it was a protest vote and no doubt I will return to the mainstream come election time.<br /><br />I am 55 years of age and I have never given my consent to much of what the EU does. I object to not having been asked in a democracy and until now there has not been a way of expressing this.<br /><br />If I were to be given a vote tomorrow I would probably vote to remain a member of the EU but this should not be taken for granted.<br /><br />Please do not llabel people who want to deal with immigration as racist as you will be condemning many people in your own back yard. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-67363238980110779582014-05-28T11:37:14.054+01:002014-05-28T11:37:14.054+01:00The really sad thing is that this scenario is enti...The really sad thing is that this scenario is entirely believable!towy71https://www.blogger.com/profile/17385691259489936354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-118857435900510280.post-49268293088526149212014-05-28T11:16:20.962+01:002014-05-28T11:16:20.962+01:00a nice romp, Cneifiwr It seems farcical but could ...a nice romp, Cneifiwr It seems farcical but could come true. De Valera and Saunders Lewis would be laughing as the UK went the isolationist route<br /><br />and the world looked on in bemusement as "Great Britain" turned in on itself and finally lost any vestige of power or influence on the world stage.<br /><br />On a serious note, cities from Amsterdam through Paris, Berlin etc are preparing as we speak to cash in the UK exit dividend to the full as the multinationals relocate.......<br />Scotland in and UK out, back to the auld alliance but this time it will be profitable for France!william dolbennoreply@blogger.com